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BH and I had our first weekly meeting with one another last night, at the recommendation of our MC. It was... rough.

My mental health has been atrocious, and when that happens, the condition of the house also gets atrocious and I get backlogged on tasks for work, and then when the house gets atrocious, it upsets my H, and then when he gets upset about it my mental health gets worse, and I feel even more overwhelmed about everything and paralyzed with regards to starting to dig myself back out of the hole...

Sometimes I try to stay up late to catch up, or I'll sleep on the couch because I will set like 6 alarms for me to wake up early and I'm trying not to disturb H. My thought process is that if I take hours from the night to add more to "my day," start getting caught up, and then H will be less displeased, and my mental/emotional health will improve, and then I can be a generally more functional person. It's the point in the cycle that I try to break it.

This cycle happened periodically prior to the affair. This staying up to try to break the cycle happened prior to the affair. But post DDay, BH has said that the house being a mess triggers him because when I was checking out to fantasy land with AP, the house became a mess. I also was staying up late and not coming to bed during the A, so now that's a trigger for him too... So you can see how I'm kind of stuck, right?

We tried talking about this last night at the end of the meeting, after I asked him if he would rather I stay up to try to knock out some dishes or go to bed with him. I acknowledged that me not coming to bed was a trigger for him... Possibly I forgot to apologize-- gotta make sure to do that later-- but I received that's what's happening for him emotionally. I also tried to explain that my mental health is bad right now and I'm trying to break the cycle and make him happy, that the cycle happened frequently prior to the affair, and that I often tried to stay up late to get caught up prior to the A.

I wanted him to cognitively recognize that there's not a strong correlation between whether I'm staying up late and whether I'm having an affair, because that's not the Reality of the data. I said that when one is traumatized, the brain looks for patterns to protect you, and they're not always accurate patterns. It then triggers when it perceives a variable that it thinks means there is imminent danger... I told him I understand why he's triggered, and I'm not asking him not to be triggered, because we're still only a year out. I just thought that possibly consciously understanding that the correlation isn't high and updating his mental model would help him work through the emotional side of things.

I wanted him to understand the rock and the hard place I've managed to put myself in, and the route I was trying to take out of it. Since he selected "stay up and do the dishes" over "come to bed," I sort of wanted reassurance that come tomorrow, he wouldn't be unhappy that I hadn't come to bed, since that's what he chose. Like I just want to stop being punished for trying to make him feel better, no matter what I do, so I can stop feeling like shit and be a functional person. I just don't think he was understanding that's what I wanted. He just kept going back to, "Yeah but when you don't come to bed, I am emotionally triggered..." Which brought me back to the whole bad-correlation and at least trying to logick oneself out of the trigger....

(And I recognize that the obvious solution is just to catch up during normal waking hours. But I've been trying for like, 15 years to figure out how to successfully make myself do that, and I still haven't found the answer. What I think I really need is proper ADHD medication, but to get that I need to get a very expensive evaluation, and right now H is stressed about money already...)

Anyway. The point of this post is, I would like to hear about ways other BS are working through or have worked through their triggers, to see if there's something that might help my H as I try to navigate this issue.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 3:02 PM, Friday, July 31st]

Are you saying you have some sort of mental block that prevents you from getting caught up during waking hours? When we were raising our son I worked a full time job and did all of the cooking and most of the cleaning. And I don't make Mac n cheese and hot dogs. I'm a scratch cook and use fresh ingredients. I took a lot of pride in my meal planning and use of healthy ingredients for complete meals. I managed to get it all done before bed. Well, maybe not ALL of it. I had some rough days, but there was never a day where I felt I had to stay up during the wee hours of the morning to get the dishes done.

I remember telling to you months ago when you touched on this subject that you not coming to bed would most definitely be a trigger for me.

I have another thought or 2, but I don't want you thinking I'm intentionally misreading you or making assumptions (because I know how that goes with you... ).

I'm going to wait until you clarify my first question above.

[This message edited by Pogre at 3:36 PM, Friday, July 31st]

Restructure your day/chore pattern and come to bed with him. Gently, not coming to bed would be a HUGE trigger for me, even years out.

He'd spent too many years staying up late late at night talking/texting/sexting w/LTAP for me to ever feel comfortable. Years later, if I wake up or roll over and he's not there - instant panic. Even if he's just using the bathroom.

Gently, this may be one of those mega triggers that won't go away. Think of it as the Tequila of triggers. You know - years ago, when you were young, dumb & stupid and snuck out of the house to go to a field party, drank way too much tequila and woke up in a cornfield feeling like death warmed over the next day. You survived, were hungover as hell, threw up for days and lived to tell the tale. But, years later, even the thought of tequila [even in a lovely frothy mango margarita] turns your stomach and sends you straight to the bathroom. It kind of like that. You staying up late to do even basic household chores causes that involuntary reaction.

Honestly, accept this. Be compassionate. This may honestly be one of those PTSD type reactions for him. Even if you were to nanny-cam style film yourself doing dishes, scrubbing toilets and/or folding laundry - that involuntary reflex would still exist in him. This BS says with sincerity and respect: Restructure your day/chore pattern and come to bed with him. By not doing this, you are [perhaps] indirectly causing him more trauma and causing a phantom type pain.

I know you specifically asked for advice about triggers, but the back story compels me to add a few comments up front before I get to triggers.

My thought process is that if I take hours from the night to add more to "my day," start getting caught up, and then H will be less displeased, and my mental/emotional health will improve, and then I can be a generally more functional person.

When my wife and I first had kids, we decided it would be better for our kids for her to be a stay at home mom and for me to work full time. However at the time we also needed more money, so I decided to go to school so I could get a higher paying job. For many years I worked full time, and wen't to school full. It was rough. In order to keep up I did exactly what you seem to be doing. I would often be up till midnight or later, and get up at 5am the next day to go to work and do it all again.

I can tell you from experience that not only is this not physically healthy, or sustainable, but it's also counter productive because you are tired each day, which makes your performance worse than it could be. Over time this kind of behavior builds and builds until at some point your body is like "okay now you HAVE to take a break!".

But I've been trying for like, 15 years to figure out how to successfully make myself do that, and I still haven't found the answer.

If you have to make yourself do something long term then there is a bigger underlying problem I think. You need to adjust your life so that it can be sustainable for you.

Like I just want to stop being punished for trying to make him feel better, no matter what I do...

I would challenge this thought. Are you actually being punished? If so, is HE doing the punishment? If you hurt someone and they are in pain, or pull back next time you do something similar, is that them punishing you? Or them trying to protect themselves? It sounds like you logically understand this. Now it's a matter of integrating it emotionally.

Now to triggers:

Disclaimer: I'm not amazing at handling triggers, or a shining example of handling this situation.

One thing I do a lot is I journal, and write letters (mostly to myself) to process my thoughts. That helps in a round about way to reduce the next trigger. Not so much in the moment though.

I make sure I get some kind of physical activity that involves other people each week. I've been sick this week and unable to do my usual physical activity, and I've noticed a difference.

Another thing I found helps is detaching a bit as has been suggested to me many times on this site. When I finally accepted that I cannot prevent her from cheating on me, and if she did it again that would show that she is not a good partner for me. Observing instead of trying to control. In this case I would at least have clear direction on how to get out of infidelity.

When I'm triggered in the moment, I try to recognize it, and tell her I need a break. I'll usually go somewhere and calm myself down before returning to the conversation.

After the trigger is over, and I calm down, I try to analyze what exactly triggered me. This is where journaling helps.

Is there some reason your hubby can't do some cleaning and housework on his own?

Let's see ... you have to take care of kid, farm animals, growing your own food, job, cleaning, and did you mention an income of $350K?

You haven't hired household help. You won't get evaluated for ADHD. You won't reduce your workload. What changes will you make? How do you expect to get the energy to deal with triggers without making changes?

The eval for ADHD was one session with a shrink for me. I left the office with a prescription for Adderall XR. I had to see the shrink twice a year as long as I was on speed. Then I switched to a different doc who prescribed a non-regulated drug that increases the same hormones speed does, so we talk once a year.

Same for me, sisson, I was diagnosed with ADHD in one interview.

Morbs, the medicine (I take methylphenidate) does help but it’s not a cure-all. You still need good coping strategies. How are you currently trying to manage it?

For me being tired exacerbates my ADHD quite a bit. I think good sleep hygiene is a really important part of staying on top of it.

And I recognize that the obvious solution is just to catch up during normal waking hours.

I read this and my first question was, "Why would someone recognize the simplest solution, it is 100% in their power to achieve change, and then choose to avoid it?"

Then I keyed in on one word there - "avoid".

I looked over your post and see you’re also avoiding having a physician look at you for possible ADHD. First of all, it takes one visit. Then it is important to know not every person who has ADHD is automatically prescribed medication. So I wondered if the avoidance of getting in to see your doctor had to do with avoiding possible medications. I couldn’t figure that out, so I thought I would just post my thoughts to you. You’re the expert on yourself, so maybe ask that question.

As a betrayed spouse, if my husband didn’t come to bed with me I would be triggered. I am triggered when he gets up in the night, even when he’s just letting the dogs out.

Then I wondered about depression. That can result in not wanting to perform routine activities, including housekeeping.

So you may have ADHD. You may have depression. You may have neither, or both.

But avoiding a doctor and then blameshifting to the idea that your BS is worried about money? Nope. That’s wayward thinking.

Better to sit down, have a discussion with him about your health concerns, how you think they are affecting your activities, and your thoughts about seeing a doctor about this. That is "recovery thinking".

I'm pretty sure I have the ADHD (honestly I suspect it's AuDHD, but that doesn't change much with regard to the situation.) I'm not scared of taking meds. My PCP gave me atomoxetine previously, but it makes me startle awake about once an hour at night, raises my blood pressure to where it feels like my veins might burst, and it was causing horrible nipple soreness (probably from combining with my SSRI.) So I stopped taking it. I got a referral several months ago from my PCP to have an evaluation done in order to get an official diagnosis and an actual stimulant medication, but when I went to schedule it, I found out our insurance doesn't cover the eval. It would be two appointments and $700-900 for the eval itself. And even then, it's not guaranteed that I'd be positively diagnosed and prescribed meds to help...

And every time I talk about a big expense with my H, he acts like I've shot him in the shoulder and complains that he's not made of money and he's paying for both of his older daughters' college educations and taxes and a big mortgage payment and the legal fees to fight our shitty neighbors and the vet bills and the house repairs and and and. It's not me making that part up. I've agreed to have a housekeeper come every other week, but I'm dreading asking him for the money for it. I feel like he's enthusiastic about it now, but wait til it comes time to pay...

W/ re: "punishment": I use that phrase the way B.F. Skinner/Edward Thorndike defined them. If I stay up to clean, he is unhappy (punishment.) If I come to bed and the house is still a mess the next day/I'm still struggling to catch up, he is unhappy (punishment.) If we don't hire a cleaner, he is unhappy (punishment.) If I ask him for money for a cleaner, I suspect he will be unhappy (punishment.) If I spend time with him riding around doing errands and then paying attention to our daughter while he works each weekend instead of cleaning and I fall further behind, he is unhappy that the house hasn't somehow miraculously improved/that I've fallen further behind(punishment.) If I decline to spend time with him because I'm trying to catch up, he takes it personally and is unhappy (punishment.) Because his unhappiness hurts me. I'm just really tired of feeling like everything I do is wrong. It's deeply demotivating and makes me feel like shit about myself.

We talked about it earlier today, and one of the things he said was "I think you need to get your shit straight in order to help me deal with my shit. I think you gotta prioritize you." Which made me think about his mood affecting my mental health. I've decided that since my long-term goals are aligned with making him happy, that I'm not going to care too much about his day-to-day, minute-to-minute feelings as I take each step towards achieving them. I don't think I can balance sympathy and my own mental health right now. It's completely dysfunctional. There's nothing I can do for him to help manage his feelings without making things worse.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 7:17 PM, Friday, July 31st]

Help me to understand. Why is his unhappiness perceived by you as punishment?

It's negative feedback that makes me feel worse.

B.F. Skinner often looked at behavior through the lens of reinforcement: Adding a positive/pleasant stimulus is a reward/positive reinforcement of a behavior, removing a negative/unpleasant stimulus is a relief/negative reinforcement of a behavior, adding a negative/unpleasant stimulus is a punishment/deterrent from a behavior, and removing a positive/pleasant stimulus is a punishment/deterrent from a behavior.

Currently, probably because of my codependency, I experience his continued unhappiness as an ongoing negative stimulus. I try to act in a way that I think will cease or lessen that negative stimulus, because I want him to be happy and I want to be happy. But all that ends up happening is the negative stimulus remains or sometimes increases, which is effectively a punishment.

I'm not saying it's intentional, by any means. But it is extremely disheartening, worsens my mental health, and adds to my difficulty in getting things done.

My goal with caring less right now about his feelings is to remove myself from the stimulus so that I can be well enough to focus on the next step in the larger goals.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 9:54 PM, Friday, July 31st]

I'm not saying it's intentional, by any means.

It may not be intentional, but in my humble opinion this is an extremely toxic relationship dynamic.

You've essentially taught him how to manipulate you. To some degree or another, we all teach those with whom we have a close relationship how we want to be treated, what we will accept, and how we can be manipulated. They also teach us in a similar manner.

That's not always pernicious. We can use this information to our mutual advantage, to improve a relationship, add joy and happiness.

Generally speaking, these dynamics operate on a subconscious level. Your husband may not be deliberately employing a tactic to manipulate you. He simply knows what to say, what emotions to show, what subtle signals to send, in order to get what he wants from you... or doesn't want from you, as well.

Now I understand, finally, some of the threads you've started recently about the 180 and waning remorse, your concerns about abuse, and so much about you.

This dynamic scares me. It's not something I've seen much on SI. It's not something I've seen much of in real life. It almost seems like a horror story, or some SciFi book about mind control and conditioning.

I'm not sure how you can change this dynamic, but I think you would certainly benefit from doing whatever you can to change this for yourself.

I want to believe that it is unintentional and that he is a good man. I'm going to let him have his own feelings and manage them on his own. I plan to really channel all my efforts into fixing my mental health and catching up when I get back from my annual two weeks away for work. When I reach a place where I am consistently handling all my responsibilities well (or at least genuinely as well as I possibly can, and I need to be honest with myself about that), I'll evaluate if his unhappiness has changed at all, or if we're still in the same spot and truly the goalposts are shifting.

It should help a bit when my daughter is at kindergarten 5 days a week rather than in pre-school for 3. She won't be home as much to unclean the house.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 11:18 PM, Friday, July 31st]

GotTheMorbs,

I realize I’m new and don’t know much of your story, so please ignore this if it doesn’t fit.

You said:

"My goal with caring less right now about his feelings is to remove myself from the stimulus so that I can be well enough to focus on the next step in the larger goals."

I wonder if it’s less about caring less about his feelings and more about being able to sit with the discomfort of his feelings without feeling responsible for managing them.

For me, I struggle when I feel like my husband is upset with me. Sometimes he is upset with me, and sometimes he’s simply upset. Either way, I don’t like the feeling of knowing he’s hurting or unhappy, and my instinct is to try to make it better.

Part of my work has been learning to self-soothe. It’s been learning that I can care about how my husband feels while also accepting that I can’t fix or change his emotions. Sometimes the most I can do is acknowledge them, respond with empathy, and tolerate the discomfort of knowing he’s still hurting.

To me, it’s a balance. There’s a danger in not caring at all, but there’s also a danger in overidentifying with our spouses’ emotions and making them our responsibility. I’m finding that recovery seems to require caring deeply while also recognizing where my responsibility ends.

One other thought, and this is just based on how I think I would react, so take it for what it's worth. You asked him whether he'd rather you stay up and do the dishes or come to bed, and he answered. If he says he'd rather you stay up and get the dishes done, I'd be inclined to respect that and give it a try. He may discover over time that he'd rather have you come to bed after all, and that's okay too.

In a world where so much feels emotionally uncertain after infidelity, sometimes having your partner ask your preference—and then honor it—can meet a need to feel heard. It doesn't guarantee he won't still get triggered, but it can still communicate, "Your thoughts matter to me, and I'm listening."

Additional thought:

"Generally speaking, these dynamics operate on a subconscious level. Your husband may not be deliberately employing a tactic to manipulate you. He simply knows what to say, what emotions to show, what subtle signals to send, in order to get what he wants from you... or doesn't want from you, as well."

I think that is an important distinction between influence and intentional manipulation. Most of us, especially in close relationships, send signals about what we want or don’t want without even realizing we’re doing it.

My husband has actually admitted to doing something similar at times—not in a malicious way, but because he also has wants and needs that aren’t always perfectly aligned with mine. I think we’re both learning to recognize when we’re trying to influence each other emotionally and be more direct instead.

Historically, sitting with the discomfort of his feelings without trying to manage them has gone poorly. The committee is emergency pivoting to temporarily caring less until we are stabilized again. And in a roundabout way, this is still caring through actions... just not mentally/emotionally caring for now.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 11:47 PM, Friday, July 31st]