SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I appreciate both of these responses, and I want to clarify that my original post was in no way advocating for remaining indefinitely in a broken marriage, tolerating abuse, or accepting martyrdom as a virtue. It was also not an argument against separation or divorce. Leaving can be an entirely honorable and self-respecting response to betrayal.

The point of the post was that betrayed spouses are often forgotten in the endless conversation about the conditions that supposedly made cheating tempting. We hear constantly about the wayward spouse’s loneliness, rejection, unmet needs, need for validation, and desire to feel alive. Far less attention is paid to the fact that many betrayed spouses experienced those same conditions and still did not cheat.

I understand the appeal of a revenge affair because I thought about it too. After being stripped of agency, humiliated, and made to feel replaceable, the fantasy of reversing the power imbalance can be incredibly seductive. Part of you wants the person who hurt you to feel exactly what they made you feel. I do not condemn someone merely for having those thoughts. Trauma produces thoughts that are not always aligned with who we actually want to be.

But for me, acting on them would violate the very values I was trying to preserve, and that took self examination. It would not restore what was taken from me. It would simply mean that her choices had now succeeded in changing my character as well as my life. My integrity is not a gift I continue giving to her, it belongs to me. I am faithful to my own values, not to her mistreatment.

I also agree that fidelity does not require remaining married. A betrayed spouse is completely entitled to say the marriage has been destroyed and walk away. If sleeping with someone else, rediscovering desire, or forming another connection is something an individual feels they need, then I believe it should happen honestly, while separated or after divorce. End the relationship first. Remove the deception. Do not use another person as a weapon or recreate the same triangle that caused the original devastation.

That is the line for me. Separation is agency. Divorce is agency. Refusing reconciliation is agency. Revenge cheating is still cheating, and I cannot call something self-defense when it requires secrecy, collateral damage, and the abandonment of my own principles.

My post was simply meant to recognize the betrayed people who were lonely, neglected, rejected, and presented with opportunities, yet still chose not to cross that line. Their reasons deserve space in this conversation too.

After being stripped of agency, humiliated, and made to feel replaceable, the fantasy of reversing the power imbalance can be incredibly seductive.

Gemmy, I'd encourage you to dissect this sentence very carefully.

Eleanor Roosevelt once said: "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

[This message edited by Unhinged at 5:05 PM, Monday, June 15th]

I agree with everything you said, Gemmy. And I too think it’s human to entertain the idea. Completely normal train of thought.

And while I appreciate was sooler is saying, I don’t think the destruction comes from just breaking your moral code. One can tell themself they are free to do what they want, but one can’t predict emotional outcomes. The destruction I felt from cheating didn’t just come from breaking vows and moral codes, it came from the complicated issues surrounding being intimate with someone else, it came from hurting someone I love. And whether or not someone wants to love their ws, it’s not a spigot that gets turned off immediately and I think can still create the same shame and regret even if you didn’t have a strong tie to monogamy being important.

And one can not know if it will cause destruction until it’s been done. You can lie to yourself about it really well, I sure did.

But that’s all I will say, I do not want a debate to derail a very good and helpful post meant to put the focus on the bs, their whys, their positive traits and strengths because this is a great message and I do not seek to dilute it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:53 PM, Monday, June 15th]

"No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

This is only true for outside threats. Yes, no outsider can make you feel inferior unless you allow it.

When the threat comes from your inner world it will hit and you can experience that feeling. You likely will because, you already consented for them to matter, they are part of it.

Sure you can exclude them from your inner world after they betrayed your trust, and that works. It’s setting up boundaries, withdrawing consent.

Revenge cheating is still cheating

Mud is mud, rolling in it won’t payback to someone who has done it first.

You can get back to the specific payback for the insult they caused you. If you feel the need of a honest and clean partnership then this person is clearly not a candidate. Go for a different one.

No need to lie, cheat or abandon your principles though.

Be upfront. "You chose someone else, I will choose someone else."

I am going to inform you and be fully transparent if for reasons we are stuck together, but I want a person who is worthy of what I can give them. You don’t want to be that person and that is fine.

I won’t stand at that level, and I won’t stand in between. That person gets it all and you get nothing.

Not everyone can live with a relationship that is undermined by lies, secrecy, dishonesty and betrayal.
A second chance is a choice m a big gift and a huge risk. We don’t have to.

End of story.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 5:46 PM, Monday, June 15th]

This speaks to me, Gemmy.

My WW didn't seem to understand how seriously she had betrayed my trust, and I briefly wondered if the only way to get this through to her would be to give her a taste of her own medicine.

This was because I was still stuck in an axiomatic "protect the marriage at all costs", so I was denying myself the agency you describe.

But of course I could not proceed with this while keeping my own integrity, so eventually I realised that the axiom would have to yield.

(Fortunately, WW seems to be starting to understand the severity of the situation. Fingers crossed.)

Dr,
It seems like you are saying that once you are cheated on, the relationship is over and you are single and free. I think that the human mind and heart need time before a legal argument like that can be at all practically implemented, but I can at least follow along logically.

But you lose me when you start talking about creating balance or justice. Balance in what? A non-existent relationship? I hear in your writing a desire to return hurt for hurt. Eye for an eye. At which point you have to use the human capacity for intimacy as a weapon, and involve another person in that. Sounds destructive and cruel. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.

Far better to celebrate the virtuous and trust in the long term benefits, IMHO.

This needs to stay at the top of the "General" page.

This is a given. People cheat because it feels good. It must be thrilling. It must be euphoric. I don’t know because I have never cheated. They cheat because they want to. There was absolutely no reason for my husband to cheat. We have always been a loving, sexual couple. He cheated because he wanted to. I never asked for details. I just told him I knew. He is responsible for his own morals.

If there is no more of it you can have a good marriage. I knew enough that any info I had beyond just the facts would stay with me. I protected myself. I protected our marriage. He tells me he loves me every day and proves it. We are fine. I come on here to encourage because I know life goes on either way and if it is with the ws there has to be acceptance…..it happened. I have not forgiven him because I don’t need to. I hold no grudges.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 6:02 PM, Monday, June 15th]

BackfromtheStorm, being married doesn't include consent to allow a spouse to determine one's self-worth, although it certainly does have an influence. My ex-wife is a very beautiful woman (not quite super model or "Bond Girl" but very close). That she married me was certainly an ego boost and, honestly, one of the reasons I married her. As with any other betrayed spouse, when I discovered her infidelity, my self-worth was temporarily diminished.

What I learned here, and eventually accepted, was that her decision to cheat had absolutely nothing at all to do with me and everything to do with her - her self-worth, her issues, her morals, etc.

Gemmy (and other members), I understand what you're trying to express here. However, in my opinion, "why" we didn't cheat is completely irrelevant to surviving infidelity.

Honor, integrity, truth, authenticity, self-worth, self-esteem, morals and whatnot are all important to living a good life and certainly worthy of praise. When we marry we make a vow and we stick to it. Does that mean we get a Gold Star or a cookie? IMHO, no, it doesn't.

My question to you, and anyone else, is why that's so important? Why is our fidelity worthy of discussion? What difference does it make?

Unhinged called it:

As with any other betrayed spouse, when I discovered her infidelity, my self-worth was temporarily diminished.

And while that ‘temporarily diminished’ phase of recovery is quite painful, it is a reminder we come in to this world alone and we go out the same way.

I hated being invisible in my own M, but I am certainly not going to lower or ignore my own standards because of something my wife did.

My wife’s shitty choices had nothing to do with me and they certainly don’t cast a shadow over me.

I keep coming back to the idea, that while nothing good comes from infidelity, I did get a full reset on how I see myself and the world around me.

I turned that reset into an opportunity to find my value and understand — as Unhinged noted elsewhere in the thread — only I can make myself feel BAD about myself.

No one else can.

Not anymore.

What I learned here, and eventually accepted, was that her decision to cheat had absolutely nothing at all to do with me and everything to do with her - her self-worth, her issues, her morals, etc.

Absolutely. I only pointed out that someone can hit you if you are vulnerable and you are vulnerable if you allow it.

With our closest people we consent to it, being vulnerable is a given because we share all with them, not only the game face reserved to the outside.
We share vulnerabilities, protect theirs. Expect consideration for ours.

That’s trust. And when is broken it will hurt.

Even just for a moment or for longer, but you are unguarded so it hits, no matter how tough you are.

** Member to Member **

This is only true for outside threats.

I believe Eleanor R's point is that the internal threat is always the more powerful one and always the threat that needs to be mastered.

As adults, we are responsible for ourselves. If one lets the internal threat direct their behavior, they are responsible no matter why they chose that course of action. One can lament their choice, and I can sympathize, but healing requires owning there choices.

*****

Drsoolers tricks himself in his view of reactive cheating. On one hand, he writes of men 'of principles' whose principles keeps them from cheating. Then he gives BSes a pass for revenge on the basis of changing their moral code from 'principles' to 'reciprocity'. Changeable principles? Not really principles, IMO.

The principles that really matter are the ones that are held when the going gets tough.

That moral wavering can be excused by saying something like, 'Well, one of my principles is reciprocity,' but in fact, the position is 'I'll be faithful to you unless I find out you've been unfaithful to me.'

I find many moral values situational. I worked for multiple companies, and only one allowed employees to copy taz returns on company time and copiers, but I copied my returns every year. And then there's the matter of alcoholic beverages while on the road....

But cheating on a partner when the partnership agreement includes monogamy? Nope. It's wrong. It's a violation of the cheater's commitment. It's failing to deliver on a promise. (I'm not even going to add 'under all circumstances.') The person who conducts an RA may have principles, but they start and stop with, 'I won't cheat unless I feel hurt enough.' Yeah, that hurts the MadHatter. Refusing to accept that is wayward thinking.

There may be something in between the start and the stop, but an Reciprocal Affair (a better name than 'revenge A') is an A by its very name.

Some BSes go through something like a psychotic break. When they cheat because of such a break, I think they heal when the regain some equilibrium. A person who thinks they're owed an RA because they were cheated on, however, has a lot of work to do on themselves, if they're going to heal.

There's no excuse for cheating.

The idea that cheating ends the relationship are ignoring life as we live it. If one's relationship is explicitly comes under the rule of law, it doesn't end unless the legal system says it's done.

I'm not saying a person who conducts an RA is irredeemable. Rather, I'm saying that a person who conducts an RA can redeem themself, and it starts by owning their dysfunction - and moves quickly to fixing it.

*****

Does that mean we get a Gold Star or a cookie? IMHO, no, it doesn't.

I'm glad you mentioned that. I'm faithful because I want to be faithful. No gold star needed. I can't see a reason for rewarding someone who acts the way they want to act. I'm happy to meet at a good bakery/coffee soph to share some pastry and talk about living the way one wants to live.

(signed) sisoon, wearing his Cookie Monster hat

[This message edited by SI Staff at 10:51 PM, Monday, June 15th]

I'm glad you mentioned that. I'm faithful because I want to be faithful. No gold star needed. I can't see a reason for rewarding someone who acts the way they want to act.

One of these few times that I think I disagree with you. If you can’t see a reason for rewarding someone for acting virtuous if that is what is in their heart, then why should a person who acts dishonorably be punished since that was what was in their heart. Yes, we follow our hearts, but somehow whatever is there is not neutral. Virtue is not expected and sanitary. It is wonderful and joyful, the foundation of a good life. And I think the suffering betrayed would do well to dwell on that.

And I’d gladly go to that coffee shop with you ☕️

Could we posit that virtuous behavior is inherently self-rewarding, such that it produces a joyful and rich life, and that immoral behavior is inherently self-punishing, such that it produces a miserable and isolated life? Everyone's stories seem to support that hypothesis, whether they are WS, BS, or MH.

No, because Gemmy is in intense pain, regardless of virtue. And his wife had a long run of double dipping cake eating, despite her vice. It is not true in the short term that we get what we deserve. We hope that it comes out in the end. But for a betrayed husband or wife dealing with their anguish, an intentional trumpeting of their praiseworthy attributes is a great shot in the arm when they struggle so much with feeling worthless.

But for a betrayed husband or wife dealing with their anguish, an intentional trumpeting of their praiseworthy attributes is a great shot in the arm when they struggle so much with feeling worthless.

And maybe there is a bridge between the two thoughts.

I agree whole heartedly there is a period of time that this is absolutely needed. The early days and months of after infidelity are a deep dark time of loss, uncertainty. Anchoring oneself to what they have done right in life, being able to view your worth separate from the way you were devalued by your cheating spouse, this is priceless. The reason I applaud Gemmy’s post is because it’s a great anchor for where he and many people are in this process.

However, later, should reconciliation really be in the table (because to me this period of time is nothing more than recovery for both the ws and bs- a disorienting time- a funhouse mirror of self) then the tides turn over time.

As the ws earns back their place within the marriage then at some point the bs must believe their ws is headed back to the land of virtue in restoring their integrity. And maybe some of these things being celebrated will be tempered with some forms of empathy. You will never have empathy over the affair but you may be able to see the nuances of how the human part of them made them susceptible in ways that they have overcome.

I just think there is a growth some Members here have had more time to form. And perhaps what sisson/unhinged wrote is more inspirational in nature—in leaving a little X in the map for where you might find yourself later.

However, to be this early in and writing something like that is a person who has a stronger sense of self than a lot of us when we arrive here. And so I say celebrate the virtuous if it helps reinforce your value. And when you no longer feel the strong reaction of all the focus of the whys, and you understand them and see they are changing, you may see it from a different perspective.

However, of all the people I have slowly watched heal here, bs and ws alike, it came from being able to self affirm and take stock and focus on strengths and successes. Evolution is simply part of the process and I think there is simply a divide of how a veteran of this may see it versus someone very new to the mind fuck that is infidelity. I think it’s helpful to encourage that stock to be taken.

And Gemmy, if you are not a writer you might consider it as a hobby later. Being able to so clearly write about your pain here is going to be helpful

In your recovery as well.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:29 AM, Tuesday, June 16th]

I have no disagreements about anything you said there, Hikingout.
One question I have pondered after all my intense, prolonged pain was what is the balance to it? What is the ying to that yang? I have never experienced prolonged intense joy that I could even begin to compare to the pain of this experience. But I believe life is net good. So where is the hidden joy? I believe it’s in the everyday, the mundane. That waking up healthy is a blessing. That just sitting next to my son watching the World Cup is wonderful. That interacting with a wise internet friend is a gift. So I really can’t come around to a way of seeing integrity and faithfulness and honor as anything but spectacular. If they are just what is expected, nothing special, then this life is a gray place indeed.

The betrayed have demonstrated their virtue in their faithfulness. It should be praised. If a betrayer can come back to it, I have all the room in the world to praise that, probably even more. Jesus has a lot to say about the lost sheep.

While the primary question often posed to the WS is "why did you cheat?", I think the mirror question to the BS isn't so much, "Why didn't you cheat?" as it is "Why do you want to reconcile?"

That is certainly something heavily discussed here, and a question I asked myself many times throughout R. Why stay? What is it about some BSes that they show their WS the door soon after DDay, while others (the vast majority from what I've seen) spend months or years trying to save their relationship? (And ironically, the majority of WSes are poor candidates for R, while some are genuinely remorseful and able to change.)

The answers that we often give ourselves (love, time, finances, children) for trying R don't really answer the core question of motivation and personality. What is it about *us* that we make these choices, that we stay for as long as we do, or try as hard as we try?

[This message edited by NoThanksForTheMemories at 5:36 AM, Tuesday, June 16th]

With the hypothesis that moral behavior (specifically in this conversation, fidelity) leads to a joyful and rich life, the underlying assumptions are:

-Infidelity devastates the betrayed and self-sabotages that which is good in the WS's life

-Revenge affairs are a violation of the faithful spouse's principles, and they make life decidedly worse

-Though the faithful spouse may be traumatize by their partner's infidelity, they may find peace and healing over time, such that they can experience joy again.

If I'm thinking in terms of an accounting mindset (not to suck the sentimentality out of the conversation), that sort of balances out the equation in the long run, I think. I certainly don't know every variable in the equation which adds up to counteract the total pain of betrayal. I imagine (and hope) there is a lot of them.

Celebrating one's fidelity the way Inkhulk describes it would definitely add to the joy account.

As the ws earns back their place within the marriage then at some point the bs must believe their ws is headed back to the land of virtue in restoring their integrity. And maybe some of these things being celebrated will be tempered with some forms of empathy.

It is natural to feel empathy for the wayward although counterintuitive. You are attached to a person and desire their happiness.

Even when deeply hurt there is a part of you that wants to see them smile, like you remember them at their best, because that is the image you hold dear even in the moment when you are experiencing the horror that it was cast upon you.

It does clash with all the other emotions, that’s what it produces our chaos, but it’s there. You see that most bs are asking a common question: why doesn’t my partner come back to me? Why don’t they try to make it work? How can I talk to their humanity and attachment so we can try to o move on?

That part of it is the attachment to the partner talking. You see them as the person you choose, their qualities and somewhat worry what must have happened to them that "forced" them into causing this pain.

You try to imagine what pain they might have hidden to get to this point because they must have a pretty strong reason for doing what they do right?

This is empathy, even if it hurts. And because that part of you still believes in your partner while the feast of your emotions are crashing and burning, you are stuck in the limbo of pain and chaos, it’s dissonance between attachment and respect and the horror creeping in.

When you have those, you obviously question your self and search for reasons why you might have been causing it, might have not been present when your partner was silently crying for help, it’s your own empathy that excludes their betrayal was meaningless, because they are meaningful.

And when you can’t find any, then is when you spiral in the "I must be unworthy ". That part of your telling "my partner is a good person they were always like that. If I can’t find a reason in them, then must be me who was not enough ".

That’s the moment when your self worth collapses, for a moment or sometimes years. Sometimes permanently.

You don’t care about losing people you have no empathy or attachment for. They don’t cause you that damage, it ma sting a little but you move on extremely fast and with no consequences.

So when we see our wayward making steps and progress towards healing, it’s natural to feel celebrating them.

That part insides you that fights alone with the emotions of being wronged, desires is so much, that is ready to forgive and praise their progress to the point of being blindsided again if it is not genuine and just performed.

Is a Bs both strength and weak spot, what we keep seeing on failed reconciliation is often not the WS falling apart from their healing, is a WS who doesn’t have any intention of healing at all, but is performing to please their BS empathy enough so they can "manage". The crisis and resume cheating at the first opportunity.

What I am saying is the bridge is already there, is the last one standing while the rest is burning, but is a rope bridge. is a matter of chance if the WS will try the difficult crossing over the abyss to meet each other again or will use that rope to just hang the person offering them a hand.

If you cross over you will likely be cheered up even while everything else around is still burning.

Figuratively I think that bridge is empathy, hope and attachment.

I believe Eleanor R's point is that the internal threat is always the more powerful one and always the threat that needs to be mastered.

I don’t like much politicians (and associated people) quotes because they are carefully designed to sound inspiring and flamboyant but they often hide the implications of the premises.

I do understand the subtext and that is what I disagree. In absolute is correct. Inside threats are the most damaging. You should defend against them. After all betrayal is one of the few things that still gets the capital punishment in those circles, even in places where death penalty is illegal. It’s quite different than our situation, is never met with a "suck it up mate". Double standards.

While this holds true, if it does make sense in politics and social circles where ego, validation, secrecy and treachery are the first order of business, to assimilate it to relationships is messed up.

Relationships are supposed to be genuine and trustworthy. Treating inside threats from relationships implies a withdrawal of trust. You can’t be guarded otherwise. It becomes managed and transactional.

It works for her stage, it doesn’t work for couples.

Yes, we follow our hearts, but somehow whatever is there is not neutral. Virtue is not expected and sanitary. It is wonderful and joyful, the foundation of a good life. And I think the suffering betrayed would do well to dwell on that.

I agree with this.

Virtues is an example you want to aspire.

Our emotions are an indicator of feelings, positive or negative doesn’t necessarily matter for how we perceive it, negative emotions can spawn positive feelings about really bad stuff.

You might feel really happy about drinking yourself senseless when you’re feeling down and beat.

That doesn’t make it good for you.
(And there is a lot of similarities between this stupid example and infidelity, same coping, different magnitude)

Emotions are inner voices telling us something, nothing more.

Emotions are not a compass, but our compass through peace and happiness should be made by the emotions we selectively choose.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 6:56 AM, Tuesday, June 16th]

Ink-

I can’t claim to know the answers to all your questions but here are some thoughts I had while reading your response.

First, I think the pure definition of healing really is to be able to feel a wider range of emotions more consistently. For a long time the pain is so encompassing your nervous system can’t process other emotions like joy to reach its height. It feels more like we are glad for something but sort of falls flat.

And you know I am a firm believer in a gratitude practice. It’s good for everyone.

I think it’s not so much one can’t celebrate themselves and their striving for a virtuous life. It’s more so the framing around this can change. You may no longer need to feel like you are struggling against a ws’s whys. And maybe that’s the crux. I imagine that Sissoon and unhinged, one reconciled one reconciled but later divorced, came to have a level of compassion for their own ws that made the situation just sad rather than feeling any certain way by their ws’s whys. And it crosses towards acceptance of those shortcomings and eventually lands in the land of compassion/empathy. Not for the affair, but for person. Something that I think is unimaginable at earlier stages.

The funny thing about healing is we typically first form a greater self compassion and eventually that becomes a well in which you have it for others. It’s that whole "our relationship with ourselves is a mirror of our relationships with others"

It feels good to let it go, and when you have you may no longer need to celebrate you didn’t do what your ws did, you simply did what you were supposed to and that by practicing those values you already receive inherent rewards.

But at the beginning of the trip, before going through all the mountains and curves, I think it’s so appropriate to really get into touch with your values, see yourself as a quality partner that didn’t deserve this and I think thought processes like the one Gemmy shared is just so affirming. I bet he and a lot of bs’s here could add even more- I am a good provider and good at my career, I am a loving and involved parent— whatever it is I think separating your sense of self from the devaluation the person who you have your most intimate and closest relationship with just handed you in a shit sandwich.

Seeing your worth - whether it be I am a faithful partner who is reliable in my relationships or I am proud of training for this marathon so I can see my resilience as I build my endurance— these are things that ground you and are needed.

After healing, there is less of a feeling of comparing them to your ws’s choices. It’s great for contrast in the beginning but the process of moving into more of a softness is not to benefit thhe ws or something you must force to stay married. It’s simply you now have the capacity to have compassion for the ws but feel benefit yourself, to allow more joy in than ever before because you are no longer held back by what they have done.

And I do think joy can be sustained for long periods of time. Healing brings a relief and lightness and it simply takes time and effort to achieve.

But all these perspectives are just x’s on a map for different stages of the journey. All are valid and needed at different junctures of this winding road. The feeling free of it just comes in times and stages

Gemmy, I hope we haven’t gotten too off track. Your original post should be in the healing library or pinned somewhere. I think a bs is on a good road when they can begin to focus on themselves and can see their own worth and I do not want to detract from that message.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:27 PM, Tuesday, June 16th]