SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I could magic myself back in time to before you met OW and ask if you would ever commit infidelity, past you would probably be extremely certain that you wouldn't.

I would agree. But, back then, I'd have told you that I'm not a cad & that's how I know I won't ever commit infidelity. If you had interviewed me when I first met my OW, I'd have said the same thing. I'd have added: And she lives an ocean away from me, so there's no risk at all!

Today, I am also saying: I would never commit another infidelity with my OW. But that's where the similarities end. The reasoning is totally different today. There will be boundaries... safeguards... transparency (i.e. monitoring). In addition, I am conceding that I am every bit as much as a philandering scoundrel as anyone else on planet earth--so I actively need to police my behavior. Importantly, there are two goals of that policing: (1) Protect the M (the obvious goal); (2) Protect the friendship (because a meaningful violation here would--I grant--cancel the relationship for life). So... even if one thinks I am lying about my dedication to my M (and why would I be when I am enduring the agony of NC for months ad nauseum), WTF would I let myself slip up when an error would kill the friendship? Now... there is a potential exception for some WSs: to get one more roll in the hay with the AP. That rationale doesn't apply for me--but not because I'm "too good of a soul for that." It doesn't apply because my OW lives in Poland, I live in the US, and neither of us really travels!

This is why we recommend approaching infidelity recovery with patience and humility, and do the deep Work to fix what inside you made infidelity a possibility at all.

Humility and patience are important tools. Got it. Check. How do I connect any of the Deep Work disclosures of my recent prior posts to the goal of decreasing infidelity recidivism risk?

So: Explore likes and dislikes -----> ChatGPT ------> Self-love.

Is that pretty much "it"?

Your wife didn't ask or want to be betrayed. YOU did the betraying.

Agreed.

Losing OW is not a mean thing she is doing to you, it is a consequence of your actions.

It is one possible consequence, but not the only possible and effective way of making amends.

You think if she could just choose not to feel hurt by this and threatened by OW, that she wouldn't??

Nobody is saying there's a simple switch she just needs to throw to move past the wound. However, candidly, no BS is looking for alternative ways of solving this problem by different means because every BS is told that "permanent disposition of the AP is the cure for what ails you." And yes, I do believe there are alternative ways for the wound to be healed.

YOU put the two of you in this position, not her. Therefore it's on you to rebuild trust, accommodate her feelings, and prioritize her emotional safety, not the other way around.

I think we just have to agree to disagree on this point, whatever it means you think of me. Again, I believe my W shares a tiny bit of culpability for the infidelity, while I bear the lion's share of it. I also believe that spouses need to help each other through all marriage and immediate family problems--even infidelity.

If you said, "I need some time for myself; either the kids can do one less extracurricular, or we can hire someone to take them," I certainly wouldn't condemn you for it

I have been screaming that from the rooftops (figuratively and without really yelling) at literally every MC session for many months now. My W adamantly refuses change--and my kids want to keep doing their extracurriculars. So I consistently get out-voted.

You can structure your life however you want, long as your kids are cared for and the bills are paid. If you wanted to work less, you could find a way.

...

You could chit chat with the other parents for the extracurriculars you do go to.

Mostly, it's my W who takes the kids because she works only part-time (1 week of work, 3 weeks off, repeat), while I am full time. Two years ago, I asked to drop down at work to 91% Full-Time Equivalents to have more time at home. I was refused that request. This year, it was granted. But I am absolutely drowning over thinking so much about my W and or marriage problems and my OW.... It has consumed all of the extra time and then some! Could I work any less still? Maybe, but once I drop below 91% FTE, I get counted as "Part Time" and that restructures how much everything costs that's paid for mostly outta my salary: health and vision and dental insurance... Plus, we might hafta pull our kids outta Catholic schools and place them in public school and cancel tutoring for them. We don't want that, either.

I know everyone thinks doctors make a ton of money. And some do, admittedly. But you'd likely be surprised how little academic pediatric subspeciality physicians get paid. Working 15-16 hour days x 7 days per week, including some nights and weekends and holidays, I make much closer to $200k than $300k per year. And then... with the crazy long work hours, we have absurdly high living expenses. A laundry service. A maid service. A nanny (because our work hours are too long to accommodate a day care). Take-out meals. A lawncare service. A pest control service. I "get it" that lots of folks have to "make do" without such "privileges". What people don't understand is that what we're trying to buy with those services is time. And time is ultra expensive to buy.

If you did squeeze in a couple's activity and it didn't result in any friends, you could quit that one and try a new one.

True. And that may well be how we will eventually make acquaintances. But even for that shallow depth bond to form will likely take years! (My W is even more socially shy than me; she's misanthropic and makes me look like an extrovert!) Frankly, I don't give a rat's a-- about gaining the "privilege" of cocktail party chatter / banter with people I hardly know. What I need for thriving is 1-2 deep friendships.

I never made any friends slogging through hours of unenjoyable interactions in which I'm having to mask the whole time... I shudder just thinking about all that inane small talk!!

Love that thought. Completely identify!

You said you make time for playing video games and you met OW that way, you could meet more people there as well

True. And there may be further opportunities there in the future. Although my W has steadfastly refused multiple invites from me to join me in the game I play. Currently, my main account is stranded in a French Alliance because they were willing to let me park it there during a year largely off from gaming so I could focus more on family. (No, I don't really speak much French at all.) My OW and most of my old game acquaintances moved their accounts to the same group in a new server in the same game.

The light acquaintanceships I still have online are a delightful, but eclectic, bunch. I'm still Discord-acquaintances with a lesbian-identifying transwoman, a property manager for an apartment complex in New Jersey, two other physicians (a man and a woman), a guy who has a criminal record and claims to sell large amounts of recreational drugs in real life, and a nude model who lives in the UK and bounces in and out of psych hospitals. My W thinks my mix is hilarious because I am so plain vanilla in real life! (Yes, my W knows about the nude model. No, I have not gotten or sought photos of her. No, I do not condone recreational drug use. Nor have I ever used drugs recreationally. Nor--for that matter--do I smoke. And, yes, I drink alcohol, but so lightly that I have literally never once been more than minimally buzzed.) But none of us speak much anymore because I don't play the game with them any more.

Just letting you know, I no longer keep friends that believe infidelity is ever okay. Just part of my New Rules for Staying Safe Post-Infidelity. But this community and I will be here for you regardless.

Suit yourself. I am also hugely averse to small talk, but there's a difference between "meaningful talk" versus fessing to my W's CSA and our sexual problems. Having blabbed about the latter here, I don't think I could ever unmask to any of the SI community knowingly. But, I do feel a loose kinship of sorts with you here. I hope it's OK that I acknowledge that? It's not every day that I meet someone with AuDHD.

Fun fact: elderly people smell like that because of a chemical compound called 2-nonenal

Yes, I saw that article online too.

I'm hopeful for the new meds.

Good luck with them!

You will not die involuntarily, specifically as a direct result of not aiding OW... How's that?

Concur.

I'll pray that your rediscovery is swift and successful, or if it isn't, that God gives you the strength and patience to await that rediscovery.

Thanks!

[This message edited by Unconventional at 9:02 AM, Friday, October 23rd]

How have the last few days been, Unconventional?

All over the place.

Late last week, I recognized that--while I am grateful to be a child of God and therefore of infinite value--I do not see any way for that knowledge to tether me to life nor fully to fill my mortal heart. I don't mean blasphemously to suggest that God doesn't provide for His children--just that while God may provide me with welcome blankets, it's the warmth of my "little spoon" under the sheets that ties me to humanity. After all, I'll be just as accessible to God in death as in life! What I crave from others--particularly from my romantic partner (although not necessarily exclusively through her)--is appreciation--best for my personhood, but with "for what I do for someone" being a discounted, but still valuable, secondary currency. Chat GPT and I think those are both fine raisons d'être, just as they stand.

My W and I had a big argument in the car the last Friday. I took her out to dinner. It was nice. Between dinner and the place we were going to hit for dessert, I tried to ask my W to open up about her experience of my infidelity so I could better understand the injury I caused her. (Side note: I can't shake the aversive notion that such questions feel like I am mining for schadenfreude when I'm genuinely just trying "to do my homework" so I can atone for my waywardness because one can only get just so much information from books.) Evidently, my W understood me to be probing her CSA--which I swear I wasn't--and flew off the handle. It turns out she thought I had drawn all manner of suppositions about what did or didn't happen to her and she was hopping mad at me for telling our MC who did what to her--when I never did any such thing. All I ever had said to our MC was: Since we saw you last, my W spontaneously confessed to me a history of CSA. I don't know any of the details, but I know she told me that her CSA explained why she has never and will never experience love through sex. Full stop. So, I told that to my W and that cooled her off a bit. But, she continues to insist on describing her CSA now as merely "alleged," saying she doesn't remember any details and alleging (100% wrongly) that she merely misspoke "if" she ever didn't call her CSA "alleged." I can have no certainty about what happened to my W in childhood, what now she remembers, when in adulthood she first appreciated how her CSA was affecting her, or how much information denial is presently shielding from my W--but I pointed out (again) that she told me in the same or next breath that her (unqualified) CSA explained why she has never and will never experience love through sex--and that it wouldn't have made sense for her to make a logical leap like that if the CSA was specious.

So... I wrote her a 4-page letter telling her, in essence:

WIFE, your disclosure that you were sexually abused as a child and have never experienced sex as an expression of love shattered my understanding of our marriage and left me feeling that, despite decades together, I have never truly made love with my wife. I entered marriage believing we would share not merely sex, but a loving communion of body and soul, and I am devastated to realize how much of that life we may have missed. Yet your disclosure also gave me hope that we might finally understand and address what has stood between us. Your subsequent retreat into calling the abuse merely alleged frightens me because I fear we may lose our best opportunity for genuine healing. I love you, grieve for what you have suffered, and want to support your recovery wholeheartedly. I am not demanding immediate results, sexual performance, or certainty about the past, but I do need a sincere, sustained commitment to confronting what you disclosed and pursuing healing with qualified help. I cannot accept permanently surrendering the possibility of loving sexual communion without earnestly trying to achieve it, and my willingness to continue our marriage depends on that good-faith effort. More than anything, I want us to spend the years we have left discovering the beautiful, holy intimacy I have longed to share with you.

I emailed the letter to her on Sunday. She hasn't responded yet. She has been acting like she never read the letter, but I can tell she opened it.

Then, I went down a rabbit hole over what I will do if my W refuses to address her CSA head-on. The plan I came up with (which I hate) still seems half-baked, but seems to be at least as consistent with official Catholic Church teaching as any alternative I could draft, bizarre though it sounds to state. Please understand: the tentative plan I hatched hinged upon a document Pope Francis issued in 2016 (Amoris laetitia)--so it wasn't taught in my Sunday School classes growing up--and my plan included:

1) Announcing to my W (only) the end of our M and immediately starting LTR-directed dating (with no potential particular romantic partner yet in mind) while still living with my W,

2) Separating households and divorcing civilly if my W files or if I find an SO who I want my kids to meet and to meet my kids.*

3) Applying for nullification of my M ASAP once the divorce completes.*

4) Marrying civilly +/- (if nullity is awarded) religiously when I find the right woman.

*) Somewhere in phase 2 or 3, I would hope to begin a sexual relationship with my SO. I really dunno when would be the appropriate time. Certainly, sex wouldn't be around my W or kids.

To be clear: Amoris laetitia--which I had never heard of until about a month ago--doesn't outright say that the pathway I have outlined is sinless. The only sinless recourse I would have from marital abandonment is a celibate life of romantic isolation, lived away from my W--while bearing unchanged financial obligations to my still-W. Kind-of an "outta the frying pan, but into the fire" situation. What Amoris laetitia says is that Catholics who do what I have described in the above numbered sequence are guilty of a grave--but not necessarily mortal--form of the sin of "adultery" every time those Catholics have sex with someone other than the first spouse (even after a new civil marriage). However, such Catholics might--possibly (but: no prospective guarantees)--still be admitted to the sacraments and might--possibly (but: no prospective guarantees)--even be guilty only of a venial form of the sin of adultery. Anyhow: That just all seemed so bizarre that I tabled thinking about it any further. It just hurt my head. Although all Roman Catholics are officially obliged to accept Amoris laetitia as official Church doctrine, it remains a highly controversial document--partly because it seems intentionally halfway to endorse screwy plans like the one I laid out.

Lastly, I have been working with ChatGPT to define what Internal Work I ought to be pursuing and how. It recommends:

1) Learn to distinguish legitimate marital grievances from permission to cross marital boundaries.

Develop a principled distinction between restrictions you may justifiably resist and boundaries you must honor, even under profound deprivation. That need not require abandoning your moral position about exceptional circumstances. It does require determining which limits you will not cross when your suffering is greatest.

2) Develop a workable model of extramarital relationship transparency to the marriage.

I accept that unrestricted scrutiny of your conversations by Elizabeth may be counterproductive. Your suggestion that a counselor review potentially problematic communications is worth developing. But I would distinguish legitimate privacy from keeping information from Elizabeth that materially affects her marriage. Agree on what Elizabeth reasonably needs to know, what can remain private between friends, and how disputed concerns will be evaluated.

3) Establish what you will do if Elizabeth will not permit Ume's friendship to be restored.

But this goal will have to await a healthier marriage to resolve.

On Wednesday afternoon, I have my first IC session with a therapist specializing in OCD. Ironically, over the past week, my ruminations about my OW have gone from constant to infrequent. I still think actively about my OW at times, but I'm genuinely worried I am losing the ache I need to justify recruiting my OW back into my life in an ordered friendship when weighed against the hurt doing so might presumably bring my W. I actually need to re-recruit some of that pain, and that's surprisingly hard. So... that's been distressing for me. n.b.: I still every bit as much want to have my OW back in my life--but wanting and getting are two different states. I will see how Wednesday's session goes. But... after looking over the Internal Work questions suggested by ChatGPT... I might need an individual marriage counselor (too?).

How's life been treating you, Morbs? Have AD/HD meds been "the bees' knees"?

You know... my older daughter is in her middle teen years. I have forbidden her to date until she is 16 years old. I had to pick her up from a friend's house after a homecoming dance at her school this past weekend--just as a party was set to be held there. My daughter was... ahem... displeased with me. Anyhow, she scares me a bit. She was like: "What is it that you're protecting me from doing, huh, Dad? You know, your prohibition just makes me want to do things more!" In fairness, that one has always been my daughter who likes to scare me, but is--in actuality--very meek. My younger daughter (who isn't yet a teenager) is the one who is frighteningly fearless. She will be a hellion as a teen. Ironically, she talks of wanting to be a policewoman in adulthood!

Anyhow, I picture you at 17-19 years old and I hope we're not in for that wild of a ride. At an age when some girls' "checklists" probably are about as long as "tall, dark, and handsome," yours were--so I've understood from you--"yes, but also: a rock-hard erection, a wedding band, a platinum credit card, a beard, and an AARP membership card."

[This message edited by Unconventional at 9:32 AM, Wednesday, October 28th]

Well, you know what they say: Man plans and God laughs.

Do you think your contingency planning might steal some of your heart and attention away from the reconciliation and marital improvement process? After all, both of you have your sides to be working on. I also worry that you're not giving your wife a fair chance to seek professional help.

What has your MC said about all of this so far? (excuse my nosiness)

----

I have not been given the ADHD meds yet, as I told my NP that I was experiencing depression symptoms and restarting my anti-depressant, and she didn't want to introduce too many medications at once in case one or the other didn't agree with me. We're due to re-evaluate in a month. I know she's right, but that sucks! I am trying to be patient with the process.

Anyhow, I picture you at 17-19 years old and I hope we're not in for that wild of a ride. At an age when some girls' "checklists" probably are about as long as "tall, dark, and handsome," yours were--so I've understood from you--"yes, but also: a rock-hard erection, a wedding band, a platinum credit card, a beard, and an AARP membership card."

I cackled at this

So, I was a straight A student from kindergarten up until my senior year, even taking advanced classes. I never drank, smoke, did recreational drugs, dyed my hair, or even wore makeup back then, because I had *principles* against such things. The only time I ever received disciplinary action was for "stealing" another kid's library book because it was the only copy and not-so-slyly trying to return it... Not to brag, but I was voted "most artistic," "most likely to go to the olympics" and "most likely to succeed" (and the yearbook staff made me choose between those lol!)

My days at 16 years old looked like waking up at 5am to work on my mountain of homework, shower once Step Dad got out of the bathroom, usually sprint across the neighborhood to the last bus stop because I missed it at mine (and if I missed the bus my mother refused to drive me, and I wasn't trying to bike 7 miles before school), attending up to 9 classes and then a grueling cross country or track practice starting at 3pm and ending around 5, catching a ride home from my neighboring teammates (who could barely drive themselves), closet-eating as much food as I could stuff into my mouth before I had to get ready for work (because Step Dad tried to restrict my food so as to maintain my most athletically advantageous weight), went to work at a shitty retail job from 6:30 to 9pm (or sometimes even as late as 10:30, around the holidays), came home, reheated a very healthy and low-calorie dinner, and tried to make myself do homework until I couldn't keep my eyes open any longer. In the beginning of the school year, we would often have an additional cross country practice in the morning as well, and my senior year I was exercising sometime 4 times a day, what with the doubles, a lifting class I took, gym, or skipping my lunch period to do cardio because I was stressed and movement alleviated it... On the weekends, I did chores, caught up on homework, and often disappeared for bike rides that were up to 50 miles long and took hours at a time, sometimes with friends. I would often say I was going to walk the dog, take him to our local baseball field, tie him up under a shady tree, and nap in the bleachers, because Step Dad would bother me if he saw me napping at home.

I had 1.5x the testosterone I should have had because of PCOS and a massive ovarian cyst that was secreting androgens, so that in combination with generally being a teenager made my libido insatiably high. And yet, I had the worst time getting anybody to date me. I wondered if I was ugly, though I didn't think so when I looked in the mirror. People spread rumors that I was trans because my voice was fucked up and I was super muscular from the extra T and all of the exercise... When I finally got a boyfriend, my parents forbid me from being alone with him. That didn't stop us from sneaking off of the cross country trail or me from biking hella far to his house for trysts when his mum wasn't home. Once Tinder came out, it made finding casual sex a lot easier for me, and I started quickly racking up partners. They scratched some of the itch and made me feel better about myself... One of the girls in my art class started showing up to school decked out in new clothing, expensive bags, and the latest iPhone, and when I asked how she afforded it, she said that she had started seeing a sugar daddy, and gave me the website she was using...

I quit my $7.25 an hour retail job and started sugar dating, and used the financial support to move out of my parents' house to a literal walk in closet in a couple of druggies' apartment in the worst part of the city during the summer I was 18. I didn't tell where I was going; I had just started renting the space, packed an emergency to-go bag, and one night after they caught me sneaking back into the house at midnight after sleeping with an SD, they said "If you're gonna live under our roof, you're gonna abide by our rules!" To which I said "Alright," and then promptly took my bag and wordlessly got back in an Uber... I wanted to be as far away from them as possible. When I went off to college that fall, suddenly it was like a buffet of people who were interested in me, and that's when I REALLY went off the rails with sleeping around. I didn't call my parents at all the first semester of college.

All that is just to say: too tight of control and pressure on your kids can drive them to start rebelling, and stricter rules can drive that rebellious behavior underground. On the other hand, my H's ex wife and her second husband were too permissive and enabling with my younger step daughter, and she now seems to be struggling with alcoholism which started her senior year and is now pervading into her freshman year of college. The eldest child had a rocky relationship with both parents following the divorce, but developed a better relationship with us before she went off to University, and she seems to be doing quite well (though she has some social anxiety and we suspect she may graduate a virgin.)

So I think parenting is a delicate balance, where you have to give your kids structure and boundaries without keeping them on a leash, hope that you've instilled the right values in them to be able to make good decisions, expect some bad choices (because they're teenagers; it's kind of inevitable), and cultivate a close, trusting, and supportive relationship with them so they can come to you when they're having problems.

Do you think your contingency planning might steal some of your heart and attention away from the reconciliation and marital improvement process? After all, both of you have your sides to be working on. I also worry that you're not giving your wife a fair chance to seek professional help.

Not least after all your "thou shalt never cheat again" talks with me, and Chat GPT's similar remarks, I felt that I owed it to myself to try to explore a bit what my life would look like if I decided to use the "emergency exit." TBH, it's one I really never knew existed until a month or so ago. Maybe I'd have used the emergency exit years ago, had I known about it. Previously, the only recourses I knew about from marital abandonment were nullification (and I had no grounds to pursue that until about a month ago) or a celibate life of romantic isolation, lived away from my W--while bearing unchanged financial obligations to my still-W. Kind-of an "outta the frying pan, but into the fire" situation. Anyhow, that pathway didn't look very attractive, so... I just kinda hung-in there with the M. (Imagine if you were staring at living the rest of your life without sex or romance!) Please understand: I genuinely wouldn't relish having to start over with dating again at 50 years old. But that's still worlds better--for me--than basically being an uncollared cloistered monk. My absolute top choice henceforth is R with my W--but we'll have to achieve some major improvements in a few major areas to make that happen. I meant what I said about not demanding that my W must experience love within sex as a condition of R. But I hafta see some authentic and serious work toward that goal. And I do need to be--in actual practice--my W's emotional home and refuge and for her to be mine again. That's going to be no small lift.

My W has reportedly booked an appointment with some therapist to work on her CSA. She claims to have done so as per my insistence. I just need for her not to go see the therapist and... like... go: "I'm here because my H is making me be here, but nothing happened to me... so I just need you to tell me that I'm fine and then I'll be outta your hair."

What has your MC said about all of this so far?

We've only had one session where this was addressed thus far. Our MC visits have been weeks apart... so every time we meet, I feel like we're in an entirely new chapter where the rules have totally changed. The MC said it was very appropriate for me to disclose to her my wife's CSA to her and that the sexual and emotional starvation I endured for a decade is absolutely germane to the infidelity that arose. I tried to hit-up our MC for a referral to a trauma and/or sex therapist, but our MC was like: "Well... all LMFTs get some training in trauma treatment, and I'd be happy to see XXXXX for IC as well as in joint therapy if you wish." I'm sure that's true, but with my W's repression as thick as it seems to be, I think my W should really see someone who truly specializes in trauma counseling. That's just my opinion; I won't be so domineering as to try to pick my W's therapist for her. I just want her to get well and for us to have the kind of full M I've understood to be possible--preferably before I some day need pills to get hard.

I have not been given the ADHD meds yet, as I told my NP that I was experiencing depression symptoms and restarting my anti-depressant, and she didn't want to introduce too many medications at once in case one or the other didn't agree with me. We're due to re-evaluate in a month. I know she's right, but that sucks! I am trying to be patient with the process.

One drug at a time is generally best. I'm sorry the experience has been frustrating for you, though. Was it Strattera (atomoxetine) you were taking? That's been the best for me. Wellbutrin (bupropion) has also helped me some. Historical curiosity: Strattera was developed by Lilly as an antidepressant! But because it didn't actually work all that great as an antidepressant, Lilly tried it in AD/HD and that's where it finally found its niche. But, it does have that history as an antidepressant. Wellbutrin, on the other hand, is primarily conceived by psychiatrists as an antidepressant, but it has certain stimulant drug properties too--which can make it helpful in AD/HD. Meanwhile, Qelbree was once described to me by a colleague who actually is a psychiatrist as a "faster-acting Strattera"--and is the other drug I can imagine you might've been prescribed. One of my daughters has responded quite nicely to it. Qelbree's newish. Me being oldish, I was never tried on it. Still, the traditional stimulant drugs were never all that helpful for me. That's just my experience. I'm not a psychiatrist or a neurologist or a developmental-behavioral pediatrician or a primary care provider.

So, I was a straight A student from kindergarten up until my senior year, even taking advanced classes. I never drank, smoke, did recreational drugs, dyed my hair, or even wore makeup back then, because I had *principles* against such things. The only time I ever received disciplinary action was for "stealing" another kid's library book because it was the only copy and not-so-slyly trying to return it... Not to brag, but I was voted "most artistic," "most likely to go to the olympics" and "most likely to succeed" (and the yearbook staff made me choose between those lol!)

I'm not surprised. That is: granted, I have no basis to judge your artistry, athleticism, or appearance-altering habits. (Have you continued in artistry as an adult?) But I'm smart enough to recognize real intelligence and to appreciate cognitive similarities with you (AuDHD & intelligent)--even though we indubitably have had different life paths and different value systems. Besides, you'd have to be smart to have held the interest of those men so many years older than you as a teen. A ONS might be one thing. But, in a relationship, almost any man old enough to be married is going to want a partner who can hold-up her end of a conversation. So you'd have to be smart to be a teen and do that. Which superlative did you pick, BTW? I'm gonna guess you chose... hmmm... "most artistic."

Anyhow, you're... well... interesting! I'm not going to qualify my remarks on your intelligence (you're smart by any standard), but I find the identities you've shared intriguing because--to me--they don't intuitively all stand alongside each other naturally. I gather that they do for you. You're... like... my swinging, bisexual, Born-again Christian chat partner, who is in a semi-open May/September marriage, yet who is adamantly opposed to cheating, and who currently breeds and raises chickens! So... it's interesting to me to discover how those fit together for you. You're like a puzzle. What can I say? Well... except that I'm disappointed that you've determined that we can't be "friends." But, I respect your determination.

closet-eating as much food as I could stuff into my mouth before I had to get ready for work (because Step Dad tried to restrict my food so as to maintain my most athletically advantageous weight)... Step Dad would bother me if he saw me napping at home.

Your Step Dad sounds kinda controlling.

I had 1.5x the testosterone I should have had because of PCOS and a massive ovarian cyst that was secreting androgens, so that in combination with generally being a teenager made my libido insatiably high.

OK, that makes some sense.

...Once Tinder came out, it made finding casual sex a lot easier for me, and I started quickly racking up partners. They scratched some of the itch and made me feel better about myself...

How promiscuous you were/are isn't really for me to judge--so I'm not. God didn't leave me in charge of judging people. But I'm sorry you found a need to rack-up sexual partners to feel better about yourself. You seem like a marvelous person all on your own. My one chat buddy who is a nude model in the UK.... she experienced CSA--and I think that's why, today, as an adult, she approaches people the way she does. Like... the fact she models nude isn't the kind of news with which most people would want to lead. I stay only a little in touch with her... but I want to believe that she will eventually discover that she doesn't have to be treated by people as a sex object--and she's probably going to be treated better by people if she doesn't present herself to others spontaneously with such a prurient slant.

So I think parenting is a delicate balance, where you have to give your kids structure and boundaries without keeping them on a leash, hope that you've instilled the right values in them to be able to make good decisions, expect some bad choices (because they're teenagers; it's kind of inevitable), and cultivate a close, trusting, and supportive relationship with them so they can come to you when they're having problems.

Sounds like wisdom to me!

[This message edited by Unconventional at 5:51 PM, Wednesday, October 28th]

I just think if your top choice is reconciliation, then making exit plans doesn't really serve that purpose, that's all. I would recommend figuring out whether you want to be all in or all out, and start marching determinedly in that direction. You can always... what's the turn of phrase? "cross that bridge when you come to it," with regards to exiting the marriage.

germane

Vocab alert! I had to look that one up. Thanks for bringing it to my attention

I've understood to be possible--preferably before I some day need pills to get hard.

All you've got to do is exercise, eat well, get enough sleep, and maintain a lean body mass, and you won't have to worry about that for a long time.

Was it Strattera (atomoxetine) you were taking? That's been the best for me. Wellbutrin (bupropion) has also helped me some.

Yeah, the atomoxetine really disagreed with me. My bupropion helps a little bit, especially the caffeine, but once I start downregulating after the honeymoon phase, I need something else. We'll see what I end up with... thanks for the info.

Have you continued in artistry as an adult?

I don't get to dabble too often anymore; I've thoroughly occupied myself with chicken-related projects. I make time to construct and decorate really elaborate birthday cakes for family and friends though! I love birthdays.

Which superlative did you pick, BTW?

Well, the other winner of "most likely to go to the olympics" was one of my teammates on whom I had a crush, so I picked that one in order to take a photo with him

Well... except that I'm disappointed that you've determined that we can't be "friends."

I am optimistic that one day friendship with you will fall within my Rules

Thanks for all of your kind words.

Hey. I haven't kept up with this post at all, but I see it's now the two of you on here and read the last one or two posts.

It's a rhetorical question, but how do you both feel about your interaction? To me, it seems like you're flirting. That seems pretty weird on an infidelity forum. Maybe you all should stop. Or take it off line.

Definitely not flirting. Sorry if our interaction made you uncomfortable, kitchendepth

Yeah. My opinion definitely doesn't matter.

Do you both think this is an appropriate conversation and that your spouses would be comfortable with reading this? Would you be comfortable with your spouses having a similar conversation online?

Again, that's totally rhetorical and up to your discretion.

I can say this much: I don’t get a flirty vibe. I feel a friendly vibe. That’s different.

I think she’s a smart lady with an interesting perspective. That’s it! I will never seek her contact information—or even her real name. She won’t ever know mine.

Also: yes, it would be weird to pick up a partner on an infidelity prevention support site. I genuinely don’t think that’s what either of us were doing. But I’ll stay away from the site for a little while. Not forever. As a demonstration of faithful, purely-friendly intentions. To be clear: I do not concede guilt.

I will participate at the site—including with her if she’s still around—eventually.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 11:02 PM, Wednesday, October 28th]

I wouldn't be uncomfortable showing H this conversation, no. I am generally a much more open person than my H is, so if he was talking extensively about his childhood or teenage years with a stranger, that would be out of character for him and I would wonder why the same degree of information was not shared with me. He knows all of this about me already... But as stated, I am generally not a person who experiences jealousy, so that's not the best litmus test for me.

ETA: I would show him just to be sure, but he blocked the website on all of his devices because he specifically did not want to read about infidelity and my posts about our marital troubles were making our relationship worse, so I think that showing him would be more about my own reassurance than it would be in his interest.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 11:39 PM, Wednesday, October 28th]

Well dang. It's not my intention to drive either of you off here. Again, my opinion isn't important.

Yet, if you don't mind a discussion on the topic; I am genuinely curious. If I read this between my husband and another person, or if I were involved in your dialog in general; I would interpret it as flirtatious. Seriously. It's beyond friendly to me.

Can you explain a difference? Like when does it become flirtatious? Which words or phrases? What's the difference?

Man, if you saw the obnoxious way I flirt (perhaps "harrass" would be a better word) with my H, then the difference would be very obvious

ETA: Maybe you're just not used to seeing two AuDHD people interact? We can be very direct and often share personal anecdotes to relate and make points. Many of us prefer written communication because it's easier to analyze meaning when the actual words are still right there in front of us, and to respond in an organized way, because we don't have to think about regulating our facial expressions (emojis are great for this!) and body language in a "socially acceptable" way at the same time in addition to interpeting the other person's expressions and body language in real time as we're speaking... The result is often lengthy, wordy, sometimes personal exchanges that might read to neurotypicals as more intimate or romantically inclined than intended... Just a hypothesis, of course.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 1:49 PM, Thursday, October 29th]

I had the same feeling as kitchen depth for what it’s worth. And I generally was getting ready to say the same thing but then saw she said it. I didn’t read it as flirty exactly, but there was a comment about finding men who were old with big erections that started to put my antenna up.

And I feel the same way as kitchen depth as its none of my business but my concern is more that unconventional is still in a very fragile place where he is starved of connection and would be maybe vulnerable to feeling more in a budding online friendship where he may feel seen because there are some similarities in the landscape of neurodivergence. I am not sure morbs has the same vulnerabilities. Just be careful.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:05 PM, Thursday, October 29th]

Also I want to add, what I said was not meant to be judgmental or accusatory towards impropriety.

One of the things about people who have a tendency towards limerance that I think may be valuable knowledge:

Limerance is most often experienced by someone who has a tendency to fear emotional connection on some level. People who do not usually express their needs or anger in a relationship. Limerance forms because it’s safer to connect with your own projections towards someone than take emotional risks.

I know unconventional dismisses that he has experienced limerance but my experience with it makes me pretty sure I see it in what he describes about his "friend"

It’s common when you had an emotionally immature parent or one who had narcissistic tendencies, though that’s not always the case. It is because you learn vulnerability and connection can be dangerous during your formative years. And his disclosures about having trouble with in person friendships is one of the signs.

I don’t recall morbs having limerance, or not by what she has explained. So my above comments was just meant to be alert for that sensitivity rather than knowing whether any of this conversation is a problem. There are aspects that it could lean that way and that’s why I think KD and I are saying be cautious.

Also I want to add I am glad they are looking at OCD, they did the same with me and it did help me address it.

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:41 PM, Thursday, October 29th]

Put me down as another person who has picked up on this vibe and was relieved that KD said something. My own descent into infidelity started with online interactions through a game and then messaging service, so I know what it looks like and how easy it can happen. Be careful y'all. Take a hard look at what you're feeling each time you think you might interact with this person. Is it eagerness? Do you look forward to it? And if anyone bringing this up makes you mad or sad, that's an important place to look more closely at why.

I suppose it's the energy or attitude that's in the conversations that has me cautious. It's online. Maybe people wouldn't talk like that person-to-person. There's also anonymity. In a way that's a false type of safety, I guess?

As hikingout said, one of the first things that bothered me was talking about erections and older men and "men your age are intimidated by you because you're too good for them or whatever" type of phrasing. As much as I appreciate you all here, I'm not talking to any of you about erections.

The other part is saying you hope to be friends with them or a similar person in real life in the future. There are also the fawning compliments. They are not necessarily unhealthy. There are people who are extremely complimentary in person in my life. They have me feeling wary and on guard right away. In real life, I'd put that person in the acquaintance zone and only interact in a limited way with them.

I don't know. Maybe that makes me avoidant. Shrug. I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm right. I am honestly curious.

I didn't say anything about in-person friendships*, to be fair, and as I had said, a condition of friendship with me is that the prospective friend has to believe that infidelity is always, inherently wrong. For safety reasons. I was implying that I think/hope Unconventional will reach that belief one day.

*Or anything about "big" erections. I thought it was funny to tell a literal doctor what he needs to do to delay age-related impotency and presenting it as simple, when taking good care of your body is challenging.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 8:42 PM, Thursday, October 29th]

I'm sorryGotTheMorbs and Unconventional.

It's not my intention to be confrontational. I asked how you feel. Therefore, I think it's my responsibility to tell you how I feel and why I said what I did. To me, that's what it means to be in an open and vulnerable discussion. I'm not saying I'm right. I'm telling you what I interpreted from what I read.

My apologies. I think I was dismissive or rude to you, GotTheMorbs. I really shouldn't have had a laughing emoji. Again, my apologies.

I really do believe we see these conversations in a different manner. I would be hurt to see these between my husband and another woman. And well, to be totally honest, I saw the a few of the text conversations between them that were not nearly so personal as yours. I did feel truly hurt and betrayed.

Frankly, I also had a 1/3 of a grandma gummie (my label for a mostly CBD less THC) last night and started feeling like Unconventional was another one of your committee members. Then I started to feel like you were creating committee members based on many of the people here, including me, and speaking in that manner.

It's probably healthier for me to take a break. Thank you.

Morbs- wasn’t your comment about erections that I was commenting on. I actually haven’t read your responses closely here at all.

I have said things over time that were off color as well—-I just think maybe be aware of the specific vulnerability that unconventional is here for. You have had more time to heal.