SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

10 years together and 3 children.

It was a normal day and my W took the kids out to play at the park.

The kids have a tablet which is linked to W's account and has her camera roll synced. I sometimes look through the photos of the kids and happened to this afternoon.

I found a photo of a Chat GPT conversation she was having. Chat GPT was laughing and saying that W was now considering marrying OP and importing him from across the world, and that she was considering what a wonderful partner he would be to our children.

My heart sank, I felt sick.

Checked deleted images - Nudes.

I called her and demanded an explanation. She said she couldn't do this now and hung up. She subsequently messaged me and owned up to everything, apologised I found out that way and that we would talk later when she was home.

Difficult to talk when you have three young children but we spoke briefly. She told me it had only been going on for two weeks and that she had not gone looking for it. She plays MMO games and met somehow online. They have never met in person and he lives thousands of miles away.

She told me he had made her realise what she was missing, that she hadn't been happy for a while but hadn't realised because raising 3 kids and two full time jobs is obviously very difficult on a relationship. She told me I was not happy as well and that I had not been emotionally supporting her. She told me she had real feelings for this person and that she didn't know if we had a future.

She then started laying into me, all my faults and that I needed to "Go away and work on myself" and we would see what happened - She did not agree to stop talking to OP who had clearly love bombed her.

I was calm and I listened, I didn't challenge anything, I was in shock.

Later that evening I sat her down and had a frank conversation. I explained that our relationship may not be perfect, that I may not be perfect, but that both were real, that out children were real. I told her whatever she was involved with online was a fantasy, cheap dopamine with no real life stressors attached. I told her it has to end and that we needed to go to couples therapy. She told me it was a risk to end it because she did not know if she could feel the same about me anymore.

The next day she was completely different, she apologised and told me that she had ended it and that her family was what was important to her. She hugged me and kissed me. That evening we slept together - I have read since about hysterical bonding.

Since then every day has been flip flopping, cold, distant, the next affectionate and kind, sex.

Sometimes she rolls over in bed and holds me tight, other nights she doesn't want to be touched.

I am distraught and don't know what to do. She agreed to couples therapy but makes no real effort or discussion about it, just told me to find some for her to look at.

I am obviously paranoid and not sure it is over with OP, she told me it was all on a chat programme and showed me OP was blocked. But I have subsequently discovered she had OP on WhatsApp as well, I also discovered she had changed her WhatsApp photo which was all of us with the kids to just the kids. She had also turned of her online status so I couldn't see she was on WhatsApp. Again she showed me OP blocked on WhatsApp but now I just don't believe anything.

I feel like I don't know W anymore as we always talked about how cheating was the worst thing you could do to someone and we would never do it to each other.

I feel like I am making new discoveries of the deceit every day and it is like a new knife wound.

She still talks about the future and even what she wanted from me for Christmas.

I am really struggling with the emotional disconnect and mourning the death of our relationship.

I have thrown myself into the gym and tried to keep busy, reclaim my old life somewhat which I had sacrificed for her and the children. But nothing takes away the pain.

It doesn't help she is back on her laptop and phone every night. She has ADHD so just needs constant dopamine hits.

I am just trying to survive at the moment.

I know I cannot put pressure on her but at the same time I cannot live in limbo.

I have ADHD and have never cheated. I get extremely angry when people use it as an excuse to misbehave. I am sure there is more going on. It would not surprise me if she has some other issue that has not been diagnosed yet.

My husband does not have ADHD yet he cheated. I have been diagnosed by a psychiatrist and I have not. Do not let that ridiculous excuse fly.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 6:46 PM, Monday, October 26th]

Lifeisstrange84,

I'm sorry man. I know exactly how this feels.

Read around these forums. read about the 180.

The reality is that it may be far more than what it seems. The truth is rarely ever volunteered with our unfaithful partners.
Don't just start trusting her again. Set hard boundaries.

Bare minimums:

Absolutely no more contact with the affair partner. You can have her send a do not contact me message with you watching over her but it should be definitive with no room for misunderstanding.
Access to all social media passwords and emails, at least temporarily. She won't want to, for obvious reasons.
Access to her phone whenever you want it.
Location services on

Don'ts:

Don't worry about couples counseling yet. It could do more damage. Find individual counselors first.
Don't chase or play 'pick me'. It won't work. IT NEVER WORKS.
Don't think that this was in anyway your fault. SHE CHOSE to do everything she did instead of coming to you and being a mature adult and talking about things. Don't be gaslit into blaming yourself.

This doesn't mean that there aren't some things you probably need to work on also, but none of those things justify cheating on your spouse.

Praying for you.

I’m so sorry this in happening to you Lifeisstrange.

I think you are quite right to be concerned about her behavior. The flip-flopping is a red flag. Why wouldn’t you suspect that the times she’s cold and distant that she’s just been in contact with AP? Why wouldn’t you suspect that her change of heart in the first place came after she and AP figured out how to hide it better?

You should. Trust nothing that she says and 50% of what she does.

Talk to a lawyer, and let her know you’re doing so. Do it at a minimum for informational purposes, so you know what a D would look like. It doesn’t mean that you’ve decided to D. But right now you’re a maelstrom of uncertainty. Getting information will help reduce some of that.

The old saying is you have to be willing to lose your marriage to save it. You have to be prepared to walk if she continues to be shady. If you show her that you are, she may come out of the fog.

You are not to blame. Nothing you did or didn’t do, nothing you are or aren’t caused her to cheat. She did that on her very own. She made choices, without your input or consent. If your marriage was imperfect, then you can own that. But you cannot accept any blame for her A, and you definitely should not "go away and work on yourself" to see if you’re worthy of her. She broke the M when she chose to cheat. Cheating is a deal-breaker. If you decide to grant her the grace of attempting to R, then she should be working on herself to figure out why she gave herself permission to risk your marriage and your family for some yahoo she met playing games online.

I haver ADHD too, by the way, and I never had an affair. Stop making excuses for her.

Oh, I think her game playing should be on pause until further notice, by the way. That’s a natural consequence of what she did. If she can’t or won’t do things to reassure you that you’re safe with her, then your choice is made for you. It’s not "putting pressure on her" to establish personal boundaries. You say, you will not be in a relationship with someone who is involved with another man. You will not be in a relationship with someone who’s more committed to playing computer games than fixing the marriage she destroyed. That’s not pressure, that’s simply a statement of what you are willing to live with. She can make her own choices accordingly.

And if she chooses the games, well, that’s not very consistent with her stated goal of saving her family. (I notice that she didn’t say much about you there, just that her family was important to her.)

If you can find out if AP has a wife, you should contact her.

Sorry brother, this really sucks.

[This message edited by Letmebefrank at 10:14 PM, Monday, October 26th]

Thank you guys.

I guess the question is, how do you really know it is over?

If someone wants to conceal something they will. She can block and unblock at will.

It doesn't help she is back on her laptop and phone every night. She has ADHD so just needs constant dopamine hits.

I am sorry for you but just so you know, this is very typical cheater behavior.

You nailed the dopamine hits as the addiction to the affair. It’s new and exciting for her. Someone (a random stranger no less) has more control over her than her real life.

Please read up on the 180 and then do it. Her back and forth with you (loving one day, cold and uncaring the next) is what is keeping her affair alive and thriving. She’s got opportunity and motive to keep things as is. It works her her. And there are no consequences.

The one thing I learned from my H’s typical midlife crisis affair with a much younger OW was this:

NOTHING will change unless you change.

And the cheater counts on controlling the situation. My H would have continued to "deciding" between me & OW as long as I allowed it. And at dday2 (6 months after dday1) I put an end to his nonsense.

I was smart enough to have a plan B just in case. In case R didn’t work out. And at dday2 when I learned he was still cheating I went into full execution of plan B.

Hard 180 - I stopped speaking to him, doing favors or errands for him, no laundry or meals made for him. In essence he existed in the home but I was no longer his wife.

I got my $ together and made sure I was financially protected.

I had mediation lined up — he could choose to participate or not. I was moving forward.

I was forced to play hardball but I had no other Choice. Nothing else worked. I tried counseling - he refused. I tried being supportive - he continued to cheat and lie. I tried talking to him - he refused to engage. He blamed ME for his unhappiness, the affair etc.

So while we are happily Reconciled I can tell you that we have a very different marriage. And because I changed - I’m no longer a doormat and walked all over — he was forced to change if he wanted to stay with me.

Good news is I’m not the same person I was and we don’t have the same marriage. I did the 180 to protect myself — and I was fully prepared to D him. It wasn’t a threat.

I hope this helps you. Read up on affair fog - it will explain the cheater’s mindset. But that doesn’t mean you have to accept the lies and continued cheating.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 8:34 AM, Tuesday, October 27th]

The1stWife's story and mine have a couple of parallels. A remorseless cheating spouse, didn't want to stop the affair, and walked all over me for a month. When I discovered my wife was having an affair the physical part of it stopped, but she continued talking to him over the phone and on messenger.

Until I started calling divorce lawyers right in front of her. She stood there and watched me do it. I set up 3 free first consultations with 3 different lawyers. When I started calling real estate agents she broke down and lost it. She begged me not to go through with it. That was almost a year and a half ago and she's still bending over backwards to convince me that I should stay.

Within a week she had sent a definitive no contact message, blocked him on everything, gave me unfettered access to all of her devices, put in for a location transfer at work (he was a coworker), and rolled her sleeves up and began the arduous task of convincing me we had something left to salvage. Until then I was chasing after her doing my best version of the pick me dance. That didn't work.

It wasn't until I put my foot down and refused to tolerate living in infidelity any longer that she snapped out of it.

I'm not saying that doing this is a magic bullet that works for everyone, but if anything is going to work it's going to be something along those lines. If your wife doesn't respond to you putting your foot down I doubt much else will produce any results and she's probably lost. She's not someone you're going to want to remain married to anyway and you'll be on your way out of infidelity.

And that's the goal, or it should be. To get out of infidelity. I determined that was the least bad option. My other choice was sharing my wife, even if emotionally, with someone else. I found that intolerable. Frank said it earlier. Sometimes to save a marriage you have to be willing to let it go. If you can show her that you're willing to let the marriage go to get out of infidelity there's a chance she might respond to it by turning back toward the marriage. That is if she's for real about wanting to salvage it.

Take your agency back. Don't let her run the show. She'll just walk all over you if you do. For me, I decided I'd rather be divorced than to continue watching my wife maintain a relationship with someone she was romantically interested in.

I'm so sorry you've found yourself here. For most of us this is the worst experience of our lives. It's a big deal. Betrayal trauma is real trauma and it can take 2 to 5 years to recover from it. So don't beat yourself up if you don't bounce right back.

You need to send her a message. You're not a doormat, and you're not putting up with her wishy washy shenanigans anymore.

[This message edited by Pogre at 12:43 PM, Tuesday, October 27th]

Thank you guys.

I guess the question is, how do you really know it is over?

If someone wants to conceal something they will. She can block and unblock at will.

I just knew. I could tell when she recommitted and turned back toward the marriage. I was hypervigilant for a while, but she managed to convince me through her words and actions that she was for real and wanted to save it.

I don't know your wife, but I'm guessing you know her well enough to be able to tell whether she's on board or not.

My wife started doing a hundred little things to demonstrate she was doing everything above the board. She stopped hiding in the bedroom or bathroom on her phone. I didn't hover over her, but she would stay in the room or leave the bedroom door open. When she would communicate over messenger or text she didn't guard her phone or tablet by angling it away from me or suddenly close tabs when I looked over. She would (and still does) volunteer to show me who she's talking to. I don't have to ask, and I have all of her passcodes.

She basically just stopped all suspicious behavior and demonstrated a level of transparency that didn't leave me guessing or wondering. Those are the types of behaviors you want to start looking for.

If you take the steps suggested toward getting yourself our of infidelity and she doesn't walk that path with you, then it's not a good sign and it might be over. It only takes one person to divorce, but it takes both to reconcile.

LIS

Really quickly please secure Your finances this OM could be a con man scamming your WW for money. You have three kids to care for!!!

This shows my age but I really wonder about this modern phenomenon of willingly share explicit photos online…

Ask her this:
How do you plan to react if OM uses the nudes as a threat for contact and/or money?
How do you plan to react when Sam (place name of any child here) comes home crying because the kids at school found Sam’s mom spread out on amateurmilfbeavershots dot com?

There is a certain contradiction in blaming the pressures of childcare, career and household for the present situation, while still having time to spend online. What she describes is a very common problem and it might even be the biggest reason couples divorce or seek counseling. The eternal strive to balance work/life/personal. But her response to it is clearly not correct.

Both 1stWife and Pippin have shared what they did. I fully endorse that stance. You are pulling a reluctant, unrepentant person to a coral, against their will. I think that once you are no longer pulling, but rather leading where she has the option of following is when things might work out for you.

Consider telling her something along these lines:

I have been thinking about what you said about our relationship and your doubts about loving me. I think our kids deserve that we try to work things out because it’s normal for relationships to go through phases. However I have also realized something even more important, and that is that I don’t share my wife.

I care enough about you to not force you to remain married, and your actions have pushed me to a place where I accept that I can easily fall out of love with you.
I am not going to force you to work on this marriage. Instead I’m setting you free to do what you want. If that’s to talk to OM, send him pics, visit with him… whatever… then you are free to do so. But not as my wife.

Until and unless you clearly and vocally on your own free will state that you want this marriage I am simply assuming you have chosen infidelity over me and the family, and will work at the process of emotionally detaching and legally ending our marriage. That would require some conditions on my behalf, including 100% accountability, total shared access to the tools used for the infidelity, limitations on online activities, a commitment to counseling and more.

This is fresh to you, but I encourage you to start thinking of how things will change in the next weeks and how we inform our kids.

And then you simply go and make a sandwich.
Basically – you have said what needs to be said and life goes on.

No matter what she responds with – you ignored her, your shirts are stained, you added weight… your answer is always: I am sorry you feel that way. If we were working on the marriage we would address these issues, but seeing as you are committed to your infidelity there isn’t a need.

And YES - survus has a really important point! Check your finances and make sure she can't make any major withdrawals.

We had a long chat yesterday and she reassured me it was over. I have no interest in monitoring her or checking everything - As far as I am concerned if it is still going on or she goes back there we are done and I have told her that.

The problem I am now going to have is squaring it away mentally. Knowing that she effectively threw me in the bin emotionally and chose someone else. I don't know how I will ever see her the same again. Knowing we do not have the bond and respect for each other I thought we had.

I cannot stomach being the backup or second choice.

I will try the 180 and see what happens longer term. But I don't want a relationship of convenience. I want to be chosen and that feels a million miles away right now.

We are searching for a couples therapist because I feel we have sufficiently cleared the air and know where we both stand.

Since you have no plans on monitoring her, then how will you know if it’s over or not?

I get it. We don’t want to replace marriage with some parent-child, warden-prisoner relationship. But you do need assurances that it is over, because our collective experience here strongly indicates that affairs seldom end cold-turkey.

Not suggesting you cuff her or monitor her 24/7, but you probably need some tools and assurances that it is over. Best way to do that IMHO is to have the truth, and then work on the tools used to enable the affair.

Like if this was through Facebook, or WhatsApp you get full access to those on her phone/computer. You agree that at any time you can reach for her phone and check these apps, that she agrees to not delete conversations and such. This is only temporary – but you need assurances for now.

Just like she thought she could have this affair, she probably thinks she can hide it again.

One thing to consider:

This was going on for two weeks and she wasn’t looking for it.

Edited to add:
That last comment might sound hurtful. That’s not the intent.
What I try to evaluate is how sensible or logical or likely a WS comment might be.
If you believe that your wife, simply browsing some forum, starts IM a random guy and falls so hard and fast for him that within 2 weeks she’s been sending him nudes, asking AI about marriage and all that… then I’m way off.
My analytic mind however suggests that this is something that happens over time.

You can only rebuild from a foundation of truth…

Yet she did it.

And in only two weeks it goes from flirting to sending nudes and talking marriage…

Either she’s a real nutcase, or this has been going on for a lot longer…

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:26 PM, Wednesday, October 28th]

Lifeisstrange84

I am very sorry you find yourself here. I can relate to your situation.

So much of your story parallels mine and my story may stand as a warning to you. I too was a husband of 10+ years and father of young children when my wife betrayed me with my former best friend. Their cover was blown by another mutual friend who let me know. So began the most painful & exhausting years of my life (this says a lot to those who know me well considering my chaotic and abusive upbringing). When I met, dated, courted and married her, I thought Id hit the jackpot. She was beautiful, articulate, creative, seemingly loving and had said all of the things that lead me to believe that we were on the same page as to faithfulness, loyalty and committment. I believed that I had a chance to build the marriage, family and home life that I had dreamt of growing up. When my wifes treason was revealed, it fealt like I had walked off a cliff and the fall was endless.

My then-wife also minimized, gaslit, blame shifted and blew hot and cold as to reconciliation. I bungled my response for years (keep in mind that this was decades ago and I didnt have resources like SI or nearly the amount of written material oe betrayal trauma therapy available today). I initially raged (no violence), but then cycled through white knighting, white knuckling, rug sweeping, trying to nice her into true reconciliation, rationalizing staying "for the kids" (huge mistake). All were severely counter productive and left me in limbo. For years. It was the most exhausting and painful decade+ of my life before it all ended. I now deeply regret pouring my blood, sweat and many tears into an increasingly evident futile effort. I should have ended it a few years post Dday when it was more and more clear that she would never become truly remorseful, but, I was stuck in "I will save the marriage" mode aprinkled in with feelings of false guilt over a "failed marriage" and "what will people think".

I moved on since those days and, after years of self healing work, am in a great marriage with an amazing woman (also a survivor of a brutal betrayal at the hands of a serial traitor). We have built the marriage, family and home life Ive always dreamed of. We are decades into this and should the Good Lord be gracious to us, we hope to have many more years together. I honstly didnt know how good it could be with the "right" (faithful, loyal, committed, loving with extreme mutual attraction and core value alignment backed up by a life history of the same) person.

I know hindsight is 20/20. I know you are in the thick of it right now. I know your heart, mind and body are probably reeling. Still, I want to reach out to you and tell you to listen the folks on this site. Theyve lived through infidelity. Some of their treasonous spouses achieved true remorse, others did not. Some wanted reconciliation and were able to achieve it, others did not. For some, marital/relationship treason was an immediate deal breaker and they moved to divorce asap. Fair enough. Listen to the them. Read extensively in the healing library. Then read it again.

Beginning the 180 is good, but do it for the right reason. Its not for her, i.e., put pressure on her to get her head out of her ass. Its for you. To carve out space and time for you to "deal and heal" and minimize emotional enmeshment whike pouring effort into your own well being and that of your kids. The responsibility for the treason is 100% on her. It is 100% on her to work on herself and fill in the integrity chasm in her soul.

Take care of yourself. I mean that.

I wish you well.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 9:42 PM, Wednesday, October 28th]

Lifeisstrange84,

that's nice that she 'reassured' you it's over. From where I'm sitting though, you're not setting up strong enough boundaries and you both NEED to have those boundaries. If she was emotionally attached, sending nudes, etc...that behavior just doesn't dry up and disappear.

Humor me for a minute: Imagine if you were in love with someone, like legit in love, and someone told you to stop talking to that person. You're not going to do it.

I'm not saying your wife was legitimately in love with this person, but she could FEEL like she was. That feeling makes those in the affair do things that a sane person would never do: lie right to your face, sneak around, stop caring about family, obsess about the other person...

If you are telling her that you have no interest in policing her, there is a very high likelihood that she will find a new app or way to make contact and start doing that instead. Affair partners are really really good at being deceptive.

I'm telling you all this because I made the exact same stupid mistakes early on, and of course I found out very quickly, probably after trickle truth #2 or #3, that the person I loved for 25 years was capable of complete deception. I would have bet someone a million dollars my wife would never do something like that, but she did.

If I could do it all over again, I would have told the AP's spouse right away, I would have made my wife move out temporarily, and I would start calling attorneys. Literally nothing changed her except for those things. Once she had to face the reality of what her consequences were going to be, something switched in her, and now we're finally improving.

I know you're wanting to do the right thing, but the right thing is NOT to let her control the situation right now.

Bigger wrote:

Not suggesting you cuff her or monitor her 24/7, but you probably need some tools and assurances that it is over. Best way to do that IMHO is to have the truth, and then work on the tools used to enable the affair.

Like if this was through Facebook, or WhatsApp you get full access to those on her phone/computer. You agree that at any time you can reach for her phone and check these apps, that she agrees to not delete conversations and such. This is only temporary – but you need assurances for now.

I just wanted to tack on to this and describe what this meant for me. My wife conducted much of her affair over Facebook messenger. When it hit the fan and she knew I was ready to leave the marriage she gave me all of her passcodes and unfettered access to all of her devices. Often volunteering to show me who she was talking to and what they were talking about.

I didn't snoop or look through her stuff very often. I didn't shackle her or keep her on lock down, but her actions had a very calming effect on my nervous system. I probably independently checked her devices maybe 10 times in the last year and a half, and that was pretty much just the first few months after d day. I haven't taken it upon myself to look on my own in quite some time.

Between her volunteering to show me and just knowing I had that access went a long way. It didn't require me constantly monitoring, and when I saw enough consistency with who she was talking to and what was being discussed, it calmed me down a lot.

Another thing that helped was that many of the conversations I did see involved her expressing a lot of regret and a deep love and recommitment to me and the marriage. She praised me often and expressed gratitude for the 2nd chance. That could be another thing you could look for. The big one tho, was just her demonstrating a very high level of transparency by volunteering, very often and unprompted, to just show me.

That didn't completely eliminate the possibility of deleting some things, but I could see that her AP remained blocked, and with FB there's a 24 hour "cool down" period between unblocking someone and being able to contact them again. Plus her behavior overall shifted significantly. I didn't detect any secretiveness or deception at all anymore.

[This message edited by Pogre at 6:03 PM, Wednesday, October 28th]

You can do whatever you want for monitoring and understand why playing warden is something that isn’t attractive. However, the odds are she still is. Why would she change an avatar on WhatsApp. Look at actions and not words - while it may seem small there is no reasonable explanation of why someone who change an avatar AWAY from one that includes a husband she is supposedly, or ideally, fighting for. It doesn’t even pass the most permissive of smell tests.

Next time you see her ask her to login to her WhatsApp account on your phone. You don’t need to check it or even know it’s there. The next day her phone will show you the app that she has downloaded to replace WhatsApp to speak to him. All phones can look at recent apps - with a iPhone you can swipe up and scroll over to see recently used apps. Check email deleted boxes. Check deleted texts from both the phone and carrier bill. Check if there are any collaborative apps - awhile back someone discovered their wayward was sending messages during reconciliation through a work-appearing google doc where they put their messages to each other at the bottom.

I get the not wanting to be a warden. But you’ll waste a whole lot of time and emotion - millions of gallons worth - but you need a spend a few gallons worth to prevent it. It sucks, but read through some stories here to see just how often words don’t match actions.

She’s deleted the game, right?

No she has not stopped playing the game. She actually runs a server for it so spends a stupid amount of time organising it all - I have said she needs to scale it back.

She has not been "present" with me or the kids for a long time. Always on her phone Infront of us. She says she is trying to stop it.

She actually told me she lied about meeting him through her MMO game.

It turns out she was into AI Porn and met this guy on there, presumably on a discord server of some kind.

Met the man of her dreams on an AI Porn Discord.. couldn't make it up. But he made her feel "seen" apparently. Destroy your family for that junk.

I spoke to her last night again.

I noticed she'd had a new popsocket on her phone with a design that represented the state the OP loved in. I don't know if I'm just going absolutely mad, but she insisted it was not linked but agreed to replace it.

She also disclosed that after she told me it was over a few weeks ago she continued to contact him a number of times over the space of a week. She says she deletes all trace of messages so I would never know.

She says it is over now and she has not contacted him in a week and a half.

Despite my warnings she was prepared to lose me, the kids and the house over this.

How can I believe anything she says and I have no way of knowing because she deletes everything.

I had started to calm down but my nervous system is wrecked.

Your wife is seriously addicted to this dangerous behavior. She needs serious psychiatric help. I have seen this before and it is devastating to any marriage. Having talks with her is not going to work.